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中国经常称自己有5000年历史,依据是什么?


译者:unknown     发布时间:2017-08-02     超过 0 位网友阅读

因为,与宗教相比,中国人更加认同历史

原文地址:https://www.quora.com


In China it generally seems an open and shut case but for the academics amongst you: China traces its roots back to a very small part of present day China.  Has the current administration correctly estimated the age?  (It could be older or younger).  Strictly speaking was this place 'China'?  How do the West and Middle East compare?  For example can the roots of the USA be traced back to Ancient Greece and Rome with its strong influence on language law arts and culture?  (Even the design of its political buildings and some cities).  Is somebody living in present day Tibet any more entitled to claim 5000 years of civilization than an Italian in present day Rome?  Was a civilization of a kind not required to administrate the building of thousands of stone circles across Britain and Europe?  Can continuity be claimed for China when geographies changed dynasties rise and fell and different people living in different parts of historical China may not have recognised the concept of one China?  An interesting topic for debate I hope.

中国经常称自己有5000年历史

中国拥有5000年的历史这件事对普通百姓来说似乎很理所当然,但今天是在学术层面上向大家提问:

中国把它的起源追溯到境内的很小一块的地方,目前官方公布5000年历史是否是正确? (你们可以说它更为古老或更年轻点)。

严格来说那个起源地真的算“中国”的?西方和中东是如何定义自己的历史起源的呢?例如,美国的根源可以追溯到古希腊和古罗马,是根据语言艺术和文化对他们的影响力很大(甚至城市的一些政治建筑设计能体现出来)。

现今有没有居住在西藏的人比在现代罗马的意大利人更有资格主张5000年的文明?
中国有没有一个不需要保养管理的文明证物,类似横跨了英国和欧洲的数千个巨石阵?

经历过地理变动,改朝换代,甚至中国古时在不同地区生活的人们可能根本没有“一个中国”的概念,现中国的历史延续不断层的说法其实成立吗?

这个话题挺有意思的,希望大家辩论下。




Judith Meyer Reading Chinese novels and visited China
upxed Sep 28 2014
Because the Chinese identify more with their early history than other places do. For example French students learn about "the Romans" not "the French nation in 50 BC". Already the naming shows that we consider them a people apart a people that gave us interesting ideas for sure but not a natural part of our own nation states. For China the history of "our people" really goes back thousands of years.

因为中国比其他地方的人更加认同自己的早期历史。举例来说,法国学生学到“罗马人”不是“在公元前50年的法国民族”,这种命名方式表明,我们认为罗马人是另一个民族,而不是我们法国民族的一部分。但对中国来说,历史上的“我们民族”,正是数千年前那个民族。

One of the unifying bands is the written Chinese language. It has changed less than European languages have. Plus the Chinese language is littered with phrases and expressions that were coined hundreds of years before Christ was born.

其中一个保持不变的事物就是中国文字,与欧洲语言相比,数千年来它几乎没有什么变化。要补充的是,在基督出生前,有着明确语法与词意的中国文字已经被创造出来使用数百年了。

There is also more awareness. Every Chinese child can recite by heart and understand poems that are 1400 years old (try that with Shakespeare and he's much more recent).

还有更多的认知,每个中国孩子都能用心理解背诵已经1400年之久的诗词。(你可以试试时间离现在更近莎士比亚的诗歌。)

The final reason is that Chinese politicians play it up as a matter of national pride. For example when China was recently criticized in the foreign news a Chinese leader said "Whilst monkeys cry incessantly from bank to bank I have already sailed past a myriad of mountains". This is not just a put-down of the foreign criticism and a declaration that China is already much more advanced it's also two lines from a Tang dynasty poem that every Chinese person knows (早发白帝城 "Early start from Baidi" by poet Li Bai) - a not-too-subtle hint that China had world class poetry while Europe was overrun by barbarians.
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最后一个原因是,中国政客把它当作民族自豪感来看待。例如,最近中国在外国媒体上被批评时,一名中国领导人说“两岸猿声啼不住,轻舟已过万重山。”这不仅仅是在贬低外国的批评,也是在表明,中国已经很先进了。这是每个中国人都知道的唐诗(诗人李白创作的《早发白帝城》),明里暗里的暗示了,在欧洲野蛮人泛滥成灾时,中国已经拥有了世界级的经典诗歌。

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Eric Ruck 30 years on the leading edge of tech without falling off the cliff
upxed Jan 3 2015
You might be confusing history with the past.  History is a written record of what happens in the past.  It's generally accepted that the best source is recorded by the people who were there but of course any artifacts or recordings of history have their own bias are often incomplete and very subject to interpretation.
Having a generally accepted account of the past is no small matter.  You don't have to go too far back in Dead White Guy (i.e. Western) history to see this.  Read "The Lodger Shakespeare". It's fascinating how so little history exists on the best known author humankind has ever produced and the heroic efforts it takes to recover it.
So sure here where I'm sitting in Maryland I'm sure something was going on 5000 years ago.  But I'm sure no one knows what.  Wildlife?  Native Americans?  Aliens?  There's no record.  But a lot of such records exist for China which is an impressive feat of and tribute to their civilization.

你可能将历史与过去相混淆了。历史是发生在过去的事情的书面记录。人们普遍认为,最好的历史是身在那儿的人记录下来的,当然,任何文物或历史记录都带着自有的偏见,而且往往都是不完整的、主观的解释。对过去得出个公认的看法太难了。

你也不必远行返回到西方历史中,读读“The Lodger Shakespeare”(译者注:莎士比亚的传记)这种记录过去的书就行了,精妙的历史上存在于人类最著名的作家的记录中,而且这些英雄作家为此付出了巨大努力,这是多么迷人的一件事。

由于他们的努力,所以我在马里兰州坐着也能肯定5000年前发生了什么事。但我确信其他玩意哪知道这些,野生动物?还是土著美国人?或者说是外星人?他们都没有记录历史。但很多这样的记录存在于中国,那真是一个向他们文明致敬的壮举。



Andy Lee Chaisiri a fan of the swords
Answered Apr 18 2014
Because Chinese identified more by history than by religion
Westerners traditionally identified themselves by their religious beliefs and traced back their lineage to the creation of the world. When medi Europeans talked about their identity they talked about 'Christendom'.
Chinese though have traditionally given little thought to creation stories and focus more on social happenings and historic events. Where Abrahemic religions will talk about the coming of messiahs to define their place in time Chinese will talk about a particular emperor who founded a particular dynasty.
In the 21st century though most westerners have moved away from identifying their nation with their religion. As more Westerners seek out a secular measure of their identity though you'll probably see more people talk about how "the Romans never really fell because..." measuring identity like Chinese do today.

因为,与宗教相比,中国人更加认同历史。

传统上,西方人更加认同自己的宗教信仰,并据其追溯他们的血统到创世之时。在中世纪的欧洲人谈论他们的身份实质上谈论的是“基督教”。

而中国人一般而言很少考虑创世神话,他们更多地关注社会事件和历史事件。在亚伯拉罕教派通过谈论救世主的到来来及时确定自己的位置,中国人会谈论哪个皇帝建立了哪个朝代。(注:这家伙拼错了亚伯拉罕(Abrahamic),误写为Abrahemic。)

21世纪,大部分西方人已经不再用宗教来识别自己的国家。随着越来越多的西方人寻求一种世俗的标准来衡量身份,你可能会看到更多的人谈论“罗马人从来没有真正灭亡,因为……”并以此来衡量身份,就像中国人今天所做的那样。

If you won't eat mouse soaked in fish guts can you really call yourself a Roman?

如果你不吃在鱼内脏里发酵的老鼠,你真的可以称自己为罗马人吗?

A Chinese scholar once said: "What is patriotism but the love of a home cooked meal?"

一个中国学者曾经说过:“除对家庭烹饪的爱之外,还有什么是爱国主义?”

I mean this half jokingly but another major part of Chinese identity is the food. If a Chinese reads a 2000 year old Han dynasty document about all the various animals and chitlins they eat it will still sound familiar enough to find in their local grocer. But if a westerner reads about Roman high cuisine like roasted field mice (so popular that an Emperor had to pass a consumption law in fear it was corrupting the people) dipped in a sauce made of fermented fish guts (garum) he is likely not going to find it available in his community. Heck he'd probably think it was "weird foreign Chinese food".

这是半开玩笑的话,但我的意思是,中国认同的另一个重要特征是食物。

如果一个中国人读了一篇2000年前的汉代文献,上面记录了他们所吃的各种动物和甲壳动物,他在当地的杂货店里就会发现它们现在依然很常见。

但如果一个西方人阅读罗马高级烹饪,像烤田鼠就着鱼内脏发酵制成的蘸酱(鱼酱油)来吃(当时是如此的受欢迎皇帝唯恐它会使人民堕落而不得不通过一项消费法律),

他可能不会发现它在他的社区。“真见鬼”,他可能会认为这是“奇怪的外国中餐”。



Joseph Boyle
Answered Aug 30 2015
Originally Answered: Why do the Chinese believe that they have a 5000 years history?
The other question covers reasons why Chinese say this. The plainest answer is that it's a common sentence in textbooks. If it's being used as an example sentence a character says in an English dialogue it's not even clear how strongly the author is endorsing it as currently accepted as factual. It may also be a round number; "10000 years" is usually a metaphor for a long time e.g. Japanese banzai.

原先回答:为什么中国人认为自己有5000年历史

其他答者作出了原因阐述。最平常的答案是这是书上写的。在英语对话中使用这种性质的例句,并不能说明作者可以支撑起它有多么的符合事实。它可能是个约数;“万年”通常是用来表示很长的一段时间,例如日语中的banzai(万岁)。

The official Xia–Shang–Zhou Chronology Project project identified all four phases of Erlitou culture with the Xia dynasty dating its beginning at c. 2070 BC compared with the traditional date of 2205 BC.

官方的夏商周断代工程通过鉴别二里头文化四个阶段,认定夏朝始于公元前2070而不是传统认为的公元前2205.

Sima Qian considered Huangdi and his engineering projects to be more historical than the fantastical myths about the creation of the world and dated the Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors to 2852 BC; this is certainly a well-known history in Chinese history whatever its relation to reality.

司马迁记载黄帝和他的事迹比创世传说更真实,三皇五帝大约在公元前2852年;这就是广为人知的中国历史不论是否真实。


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