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西方网友讨论1938黄河炸坝放洪水抗日


译者:unknown     发布时间:2018-02-03     超过 0 位网友阅读

如果你读一读中国战争史,噩梦暴力基本上是一个传统

原文地址:https://www.reddit.com


TIL that in 1938 China's Nationalist government ordered the opening of dikes on the Yellow River to create a flood and slow the Japanese advance to Wuhan. While the advance was delayed, the flood also caused around 500,000 to 900,000 Chinese civilian deaths.

今天我学到了:1938年,中国国民政府下令在黄河炸开堤坝,制造洪水,以减缓日本人进军武汉。尽管日本人的推进被延缓了,洪水也造成了大约50万到90万中国平民死亡。

西方网友讨论1938黄河炸坝放洪水抗日





Just1morefix
I expect the generals and government chalked this up to acceptable though regretable losses. "Sacrifices sometimes need to be made to ensure our way of life and lets face it folks most of these individuals were peasants..."

我估计指挥官和政府会将这一切粉饰成尽管可惜但是可以接受的损失。“有时候牺牲是必需的,以确保我们的生活方式,让面对这些的人大多数是农民......“



ZizZizZiz 
If you read up on Chinese war history nightmarish violence is basically a tradition.

如果你读一读中国战争史,噩梦暴力基本上是一个传统。



onfire9123
If you read up on war history nightmarish violence is basically a tradition.

如果你读一读战争史,噩梦暴力基本上是一个传统。



Doisha
Not really comparable. East Asian cultures didn't bat an eye at a million deaths in a way that makes the Spartans seem like pussies.

没有真正的可比性。东亚文化对数百万人的死亡眨都不眨一下眼,这使得斯巴达人看起来像是小猫咪。



ilovemyloupo
If you look at it as percents of population it becomes a lot more comparable. 
If china had less people overall they would probably care a lot more about 1 million dying.
What I am getting at is from a military/strategic sacrifice point of view deaths are usually thought of in terms of over all population. 
I've yet to hear of a war where a country hasn't sacrificed civilians.

如果你看看那些人口占的百分比,这将变得更有可比性。
如果中国的总体人数较少,他们可能会更关心一百万人的生死。
我所得到的结论是从军事/战略牺牲的角度来看,死亡人数通常被认为超过总人口。
我还没有听说过哪一个国家没有牺牲平民的战争。



Soylent_Hero
What I am getting at is from a military/strategic sacrifice point of view deaths are usually thought of in terms of over all population. 
I've yet to hear of a war where a country hasn't sacrificed civilians.
Their own civilians?

我所得到的结论是从军事/战略牺牲的角度来看,死亡人数通常被认为超过总人口。
我还没有听说过哪一个国家没有牺牲平民的战争。
他们自己的平民?



ilovemyloupo
Yes

是的



Soylent_Hero
And what if they stop viewing a particular group as civilians?
I'm getting at the US entry into WW2. Lots of dead civilians after the bombs, but not US civs. 
And with the internment camps, they treated them like operatives. 
And even with forced labor, they were conscripted, not civilians.
I'm probably just splitting hairs.

如果他们不将特定群体视为平民呢?
美国加入二战以后。 炸弹轰炸造成许多平民死亡,但不是美国公民。
然而在集中营中,他们把他们当成是劳工。
即使是强迫劳动,他们也是被征召的,而不是平民。
我可能只是太钻牛角尖了。



supercyberlurker
A good example might be when the UK broke Enigma at Bletchley Park. 
There was an opportunity to save a few lives right away, but it would have revealed we'd broken the codes and the germans would have changed it.. 
So a few lives were sacrificed to save even more lives later.

一个很好的例子可能是当英国在布莱切利园破译密码时。
【布莱切利园(英语:Bletchley Park),又称X电台(英语:Station X)。在第二次世界大战期间,布莱切利园曾经是英国政府进行密码解读的主要地方,轴心国的密码与密码文件,如恩尼格玛密码机等,一般都会送到那里进行解码。】
(破译了截获的密文后)有机会立即挽救一些人的生命,但这样会暴露我们已经破译了密码,这样德国人就会改变加密。
所以为了挽救更多的生命,牺牲了几个人的生命。



ilovemyloupo
I'd consider it splitting hairs myself, yes. 
I imagine many countries have used similar excuses though, when such things come to light.
The u.s. during ww2 is probably an example of the mildest situation, since they were basically a third party with little battle on their home turf.
But there was also alot of rationing during ww2 and times were hard even for those not in internment camps.

我想法可能有些钻牛角尖,是的。
可以想象很多国家使用了类似的借口来推脱,当这样的事情大白于天下之时。
二战期间的美国可能是最温和的例子,因为他们基本上是第三方,几乎没有战斗发生在本土。
但是在二战中也有很多的物资定量配给,即使是那些不在拘留营里的人也过得很艰辛。



looklistencreate
I heard that one Chinese general used an avalanche to kill enemy soldiers all at once.

我听说一名中国大将有一次利用雪崩来杀死敌军。



rtgdude440
Of which the Taiping rebellion (1850-1871) might be the worst with 20-30 million dead

那次太平天国起义(1850-1871)可能造成了两千万到三千万的人死亡



kahlzun
China epitomises the "We Have Reserves" philosophy

中国代表着“我们有充足储备”的理念【意指中国人很多】



004413
Yup. Although Russia does too. Russia and China.

对。 俄罗斯也是这样。 俄罗斯和中国。



catmeow321
China has 11X Russia's population. Different order of magnitude.

中国有十一倍的俄罗斯人口。完全不是一个数量级的。



004413
Sure, but Russia doesn't quite deserve to be discounted on this, if just from the fact that even in absolute numbers, they had more casualties than China from World War II.

当然,但俄罗斯并不值得这样的伤亡,只从绝对数量上来看,二战期间他们的伤亡比中国多。



catmeow321
Source please on causalty numbers.

请给出具体伤亡的权威数据来源。



cus-ad
It's common knowledge

这是常识



EdgeOfProphecy 
Russia has an almost infinite amount of land, which is why the old "fall back and burn everything behind us strategy" works so well for them. 
There's a lot of Russia to strategically retreat to. Their "we have reserves" thing is land.

俄罗斯几乎有无数的土地,这就是为什么那句老话“后撤,烧毁当地的一切”在他们身上如此有效。
俄罗斯有很多战略纵深。 他们的“我们有储备”的东西就是土地。



-Spherikal
And that's nothing compared to The Great Famine which led to the deaths of 15-40 million people.

跟大饥荒比这不算什么,那可是导致了一千五百万到四千万的人死亡。



akesh45
"Sacrifices sometimes need to be made to ensure our way of life and lets face it folks most of these individuals were peasants..."
More like the Japanese were going to rape and kill many of them.

有时候牺牲是必需的,以确保我们的生活方式,让面对这些的人大多数是农民......“
更像是日本人要来强暴和杀害平民。



kahlzun
Was this the invasion that led to the Rape of Nanking?

是这一次的入侵导致了南京暴行吗?



NeoSpartacus
Yes

是的



T800Architect
Do we know how many deaths China's then government thought the Japanese would have caused?

我们知不知道中国当时的政府认为日本人会带来多少人的死亡?



Amadacius
350,000 Japanese soldiers on foot and hundreds of planes in the air. 
Considering how Nanjing went, this may have well saved lives.

350000的日本步兵以及天上的数百架战机。
考虑到南京的遭遇,此举可能确实拯救了生命。



T800Architect
Whoa. TIL too.

哇.今天我也学到了



carrotman424
Eggs. Omelettes.

蛋。煎蛋。



djozura
Didn't do shit in the long run to stop the Japanese advance to Wuhan.

从长远来看,没有任何阻止日本人进军武汉的作用。



004413
The Japanese did advance to Wuhan, but their victory there was Pyrrhic, and they eventually lost at Changsha.

日本人成功征服了武汉,但他们的胜利就是得不偿失的,他们最终在长沙输了。



BleuBrink
It was desperation. The human grinder.

好绝望,简直就是人肉绞肉机。



BleuBrink
Every time there's invasion, civil war, flood, famine, etc in Chinese history, millions die.
One failed scholar had a literal fever dream, then millions died: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion[/url]

中国历史上的每一次入侵,内战,洪灾,饥荒等,都会导致数百万人的死亡。
一个失意的文人脑子一热,然后数百万人死亡【太平天国】:



PossiblyAsian
One failed scholar had a literal fever dream
/r/badhistory worthy

一个失意的文人脑子一热..
适合去/r/badhistory板块发一下



PossiblyAsian
I'm not saying that taiping didn't result in the deaths of millions. 
I'm just saying that your specific quote is taken out of context. 
There was also a dynastic decline during this period as well as 2 opium wars, one prior and one during. 
Western influence really made the taiping rebellion more significant rather than just another peasant rebellion.

我不是说太平天国运动没有造成数百万人的死亡。
我只是说你的引述脱离了语境。
这个时期清朝在逐渐衰落,还有两次鸦片战争,一个之前发生一个正在发生。
西方的影响使得太平天国叛乱更加重要,而不仅仅是一次普通农民的起义。



BleuBrink 
Oh yeah I was definitely making a joke. 
The rebellion had to do with anti Qing sentiment which was persistent during the dynasty. 
The fever dream is really a catalyst.
It's not different from people casually saying that Duke Ferdinand's assassination caused WWI, when there was already a network of alliances and arms build up between Germany and Britain for years.
The key point is that China, due to it's large population density and regular disasters/warfare, is prone to large losses of lives. 
Stability has always been a priority for reigning dynasties and today's Communist government is no different in this regard.
While the flooding during the war caused massive amounts of death, in the context of the war itself it was not remarkable. 
The Chinese strategy after failing to defend Shanghai was using massive reserves and space to stall a technological and militarily stronger force.
While this amount would be a landmark moment in Western history, it wasn't even the worst flood in China in the 20th century. 
Before the Communist dammed the major rivers, flood regularly killed millions of people:

哦,是的,我绝对是开玩笑。
这次起义与自从清王朝建立以来一直存在的反清情绪有关。
这个文人的脑子一热只是一个导火索。
这就像是人们说费迪南德公爵被暗杀【即萨拉热窝事.件】引发了第一次世界大战一样,其实当时德国和英国已经备战多年了。
关键是中国由于人口密度大,经常性的灾难/战争,很容易造成巨大的生命损失。
稳定一直是统治王朝施政的重中之重,今天的GC党政府在这方面也没有什么不同。
这次战争期间的洪水造成了大量的死亡,但在战争的大背景下,这并不怎么引人注目。
中国在上海沦陷之后的战略是利用大量的战争储备和战略空间来抵挡技术和军力更占优势的敌人。
虽然这个数额的人口遇难在西方历史会是一个要大书特书的灾难,但它甚至不是二十世纪中国最严重的洪灾。
在GC党在主要河流上修建水利工程之前,洪水常常造成数百万人丧生:



PossiblyAsian
Sorry lol. YEa I was just being snarky

对不起:)!我只是在乱咬人



BleuBrink 
I was too.

我也是



MordorsFinest 
blame whitey

这要怪白人



PossiblyAsian
It is known

这是众所周知的



thegreatvortigaunt
You're conveniently neglecting to mention that it was largely due to his Christianity

你很轻易地忽略了,这主要是因为他【洪秀全】是基督教的



a-really-big-muffin
Except it wasn't though. 
His "Christianity" was him claiming to be Jesus' younger brother and then throwing in whatever rule he felt like including at the time. 
The American missionary he went to in China actually refused to baptize him because he was only using it as a political tool. 
It was a convenient excuse to try and take over the country (are you gonna argue against the guy you believe is supernatural?)

他的“基督教”背景是他自称是耶稣的弟弟,然后抛弃他当时所感觉到的任何规则。
他在中国碰到的美国传教士实际上拒绝给他洗礼,因为他只是把宗教当作政治工具。
这是一个很简单的借口来尝试着接管整个国家(你会反对那个你认为是超自然的人吗?)



BleuBrink
He read one Christian pamphlet. That was the entirely extent of his exposure to Christianity. 
It could have been a pamphlet from any other religion. I'm sure the pamphlet didn't tell him to start a rebellion.

他读了一本基督教徒小册子。 这是他接触基督教的所有经历。
它本来可以是任何其他宗教的小册子。 我相信这本小册子没有告诉他造反。



RossBoss95
However this does have lasting damaging effects on how China viewed Christianity. In the end this was a peasant rebellion

然而,这还是让中国长久的对基督教保持着其有毁灭倾向的印象。 虽然这只是一次农民起义。


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