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中国第二架隐形战机试飞,美国网友羡慕嫉妒恨


China’s Second Stealth Fighter Flies
译者:南田翡翠     发布时间:2013-09-29     超过 0 位网友阅读

中国偷了我们所有的东西……这让他们的技术很容易地就进步了。

原文地址:http://defensetech.org/2012/05/17/chinas-second-stealth-fighter-flies/

China’s second J-20 stealth fighter has officially taken to the skies, making China the third nation after the United States and Russia to operate multiple stealth aircraft (to be fair, only the U.S. has an operational fleet of stealth jets, China and Russia have only two prototypes apiece).

中国第二架J-20隐形战机正式飞上蓝天,中国至此成为继美俄之后第三个拥有多架隐形战机的国家(说句实在话,只有美国拥有一支有实战能力的隐形战机编队,中国和俄罗斯都只有两架原型机)。



Stratege · 2 days ago +8(+8是评分)
Russia have three prototypes. And the fourth is coming.
0 replies · active 2 days ago

俄罗斯有3架原型机,而且第四架已经快出来了。



Tom Thomas · 2 days ago +8
Guess we shouldn't have China make the parts for us.
2 replies · active 1 day ago

我想我们不应该让中国为我们造零件。



Vec · 2 days ago -5
U.S. must be pretty useles then.

美国绝对是非常无能。



Doc · 1 day ago 0
They are stealing EVERYTHING from us...makes tech advances easy

中国偷了我们所有的东西……这让他们的技术很容易地就进步了。



hsatpft 24p · 2 days ago +7
The J-20 is said to be evidence that China is closing the technological gap. Not saying that China is not. But the J-20 program is about where the F-22 program was in 1998. And there's no way to be sure how the 2 machines compare at this point.
2 replies · active 16 hours ago


J-20被称为是中国正在缩小技术差距的明证。并不说中国不是在缩小差距。但是,J-20项目还处于F-22在1998年的阶段。而且两者没法直接作比较。



Tom · 1 day ago +4
The J-20 program is about where the F-117 was in 1977.

J-20项目大约处于1977年F-117的阶段。



KSK · 16 hours ago 0
J-20 is at a very nascent stage ... in 1998 F-22 had all the sensors built into it.
J-20 right now is an empty tin...it will take a decade to fine tune it and its shape may also vary.
chini lack skill many critical passive n active sensors which define the 5th generation characteristics...
AESA Radar,IRST and the engine ..developing these individually will be a challenge on its own .

J-20还处于萌芽阶段……在1998年,F-22已经安装上了所有的传感器。

J-20目前只是一个空锡壳……需要10年时间进行微调,而且外形也可能会变化

中国缺乏很多关键的主动和被动传感器,而那是5代机的必要组成。



vok · 2 days ago +7
Well, guess we shouldn’t let China into WTO. Even further, Nixon shouldn't open diplomatic door to Chairman Mao. In retrospect, that was a dumb decision. The Soviets would self destruct anyway, with or without a Sino-American axis. Then again, back then who would imagine China is displacing US as the top dog.
17 replies · active 10 hours ago

好吗,我想我们不应该让中国加入WTO。而更早的时候,尼克松不应该向毛主席打开外交之门。检讨过去,那是个愚蠢的决定。不管有没有中-美轴心,苏联反正都会自我毁灭。话又说回来,当时谁能想象中国会取代美国成为优胜者呢?



Sgt_Buffy 77p · 2 days ago +7
They haven't replaced the US yet, and won't for another few generations I suppose. But we cannot be eternally top dog, things like this go in sine waves. America will always be a nation to contend with, but with the rate of job exportation, I don't know. As for me? I buy American. (oh, except for this computer and motorcycle, both Asian Products.) Once we get our government untangled we'll regain our top status. I'm no anti-governmental, but it's pretty hard to get something done in our government, and it's neigh on impossible to manufacture cheap goods. American products are on average 10% more expensive, and from experience, 40% more reliable. I am interested to see where this J-20 stands in reliability in the long run.


中国还未取代美国,而且在我看来,在最近几十年都取代不了美国。但是,我们不可能永远是优胜者,这就和正弦曲线一样。永远会有国家和美国竞争,但是随着工作出口率的变化,未来会怎样我就不知道了。就我个人来说,我买美国赢。(呃,这台电脑和摩托车都是亚洲出产。)只要我们整顿好政府,我们就会重回顶端。我不是反政府,但是,我们的政府真的是很难做成任何事,而且政府几乎制造不出来便宜的商品。

美国的产品平均要贵10%,但根据以往的经验,可靠性要高40%。我很好奇J-20在长时间测试中的可靠性。



justsaying · 2 days ago -11
In my experience American made products have been poorly engineered and fail more frequently than their overseas counterparts.

根据我自己的经验,美国产的东西工艺简陋,而且比他们的海外同行出问题的频率更高。



Richard S · 2 days ago +4
Damn iPhone......wait

该死的iPhone……先等等



Sgt_Buffy 77p · 2 days ago +11
It depends on where you get it, or how. American tools and machined equipment is often stronger than their Chinese counterpart, but electronics often are more durable when built in China, mainly because they have more experience with that kind of thing. Bicycles, tools, knives, hunting rifles, hardware (esp. screws) basically anything involving steel or metals (including the Victory series motorcycles) are all noticeably better quality than their counterpart. (I don't know about Victory, I just heard they are manufactured in the US.)

这取决于你的经验从哪来或者说怎样来的。通常来说,美国的工具和机加工设备比中国相应的产品更强。但是中国产的电子设备常常更加耐用,这主要是因为中国在制造这类产品上经验更丰富。

美国产的自行车、工具、刀、猎X枪、硬件(尤其是螺丝)等任何含有钢铁或者其它金属(包括胜利系列摩托车)都明显比海外的对应产品质量好。(我不了解胜利摩托,我只是听说这是美国制造的。)



Ken · 2 days ago +4
I dont know where you get the idea or stats of American made products cost 10% more while it is 40% more reliable. The reliability, i got no source so i wont touch it, but the cost its not that simple. If on average american made products cost 10% more, I dont think companies like Apple would mind producing them in the US. As far as i know, a manufacturer worker at a Foxconn plant that produce the iPhone for Apple, their average salary is about 250-300USD per month. If the plant was to be in the US, each employee would make at least 1200USD per month. Thats already 4X the salary of the Chinese labors, and 4X means 400% more not 10% or any 2-digit percentage.

我不知道你从哪得到的观点或者数据说美国制造在贵10%的同时,可靠性强40%。关于可靠性,我没有任何来源,所以我不谈它。但是,造价上没那么简单。如果美国制造平均只贵10%,我想苹果这样的公司不会介意在美国生产。

据我所知,一个富士康工业园为苹果生产iPhone的车间工人,其平均工资大约只有250-300美元一个月。如果此工业园建在美国,每个工人月工资至少有1200美元。这已经相当于中国劳工4倍的工资,4倍意味着贵400%而不是10%或者其它任何两位数的百分比。



Ken · 2 days ago +7
Also, when we talk about economics, we tend to only observe the negative part of jobs outsourcing and think that we're on the doom. But a lot of people fail to realize that its a trade off. We trade some jobs for lower cost products, thus, increasing our consumption with the money we have, raising our living standard. If the iPhone were to be made in the US, each would cost 1500USD, how many Americans would be able to afford it? Also, we no longer dominate the hardware production industry, but a new software and IT industry emerged that dominates the world. phones come from various manufacturers of different countries, but its operating systems (iOS, Android, Windows Mobile) all USA, isnt that more critical? Even for a computer, Windows, Linux, and Mac OSX pretty much dominate the billion of computers in this world too right? So there are stuffs that we do produce and provide it to all of the world with no competition. Dont be too pessimistic about the unskilled jobs outsourcing.

同样,当我们谈及我国的经济时,我们倾向于只看到工作外包的消极一面,认为我们正在衰落。但是很多人没意识到那是一个折中做法。我们把一些工作换成了更便宜的商品,从而提高了我们的消费能力,提升了我们的生活水平。如果iPhone在美国制造,一部iPhone就得要1500美元,那又有多少美国人买得起?

同样,我们不再统治硬件制造业,但是新兴的软件和IT业统治了世界。虽然手机是由不同的国家制造的,但是它们的操作系统(iOS, Android, Windows Mobile)都是美国的,这不更关键吗?

即使是拿电脑来说,Windows,Linux和Mac OSX几乎控制了全世界上10亿的脑,难道不是这样吗?因此,有些东西是我们生产并提供给全世界,并且没人能形成有效竞争。别对简单的工作外包太悲观。



Haha · 2 days ago +3
I somewhat disagree with you.
Read Clayton Christiansen's book, "The Innovator's Dilemma". It explains the danger of outsourcing. When you lose manufacturing you lose the innovation that goes with it. The vast majority of innovation occurs on the factory floor where the engineer is trying to solve a practical problem or increase efficiency. You don't have that sitting in an ivory tower trying to innovate on a blackboard.

我有点不同意你的观点。

读读克莱顿·M·克里斯坦森写的《创新的困境》。该书说明了外包的危险性。当你失去制造业时,你会失去伴随着制造业的创新。绝大多数的发明都是由工程师在制造现场解决实际问题或者提升效率时创造的。坐在象牙塔里,在黑板上搞创新是不会有上述的成果的。



Tom · 1 day ago +1
So you think a 'vast majority' of Apple's innovation occurred in factories in China and not by the engineers in Cupertino?

因此你认为苹果的“绝大多数”都是在中国的工厂里面出现的而不是库比蒂诺的工程师创造的?



vok · 1 day ago +2
FYI. Apple's software development is sourced to companies based in India. Only program management and some R&D are still based in Cali. As for hardware, every piece is outsourced, from microchips to LCD display panel, mostly are made by Asian vendors . The final assembly is done in China (no surprise here).


供参考。苹果的软件开发是外包给印度公司的。只有程序管理和部分研发仍然在加利福尼亚。硬件方面,所有的部分都外包了,从芯片到屏幕,大多数都是亚洲的供应商制造的。最后的组装是在中国(这点并不奇怪)。



Ken · 1 day ago +2
Which company in India develop software for Apple? and What source stated that? If thats really the case why does Apple need to hire thousands of professional employees in Cupertino that they pays billions every yr? Also, you see what I mean when you keep on speaking of the hardware in the iPhone? what are the countries that you listed made the hardware for Apple? China, Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea. Look at how much competitions that is for those Asian vendors. Also, because hardware is something that is easy to produce and earn little profit. For the operating systems and software, US and Americans simply have complete full domination in the world market, isnt that smarter? Even Sony is a long traditional #1 maker of TVs, but new underdawgs from South Korea came to compete and took their place easily. But look at the American software and IT industry that was emerged as a result of the no longer profitable hardware industry, no one in the world was able to compete. Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, ebay, Facebook, and etc. It proves Americans have a high adaptation skill, when we find something to no longer be profitable to produce, we learn to produce something else that no one can compete. Just look at Microsoft Windows alone, no country ever even try to develop something that can compete with it, not that they tried and fail. They simply give up without a fight.

印度的哪个公司为苹果开发软件?谁说过这话?如果真是那样,为什么苹果还要花上10亿美元一年在库比蒂诺雇佣数以千计的专业人员呢?而且,你一直讲苹果的硬件,到底有没有没明白我的意思啊?你所列举的为苹果生产硬件的都是哪些国家?

中国、台湾地区、日本和韩国。看看这些亚洲供应商们的竞争力吧。而且,这是因为硬件容易制造,利润低。对于操作系统和软件来说,美国在世界市场上有着绝对的统治力,这不是更明智的选择吗?

即使是索尼这样长期保持电视制造世界第一的企业,现在也被来自韩国的轻松打败了。但是看看美国新兴的软件和IT行业吧,他们是硬件制造行业不再赚钱的结果,而目前世界其它国家还无法对其造成竞争威胁。例如Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, ebay, Facebook等等。

这证明美国人拥有很高的适应能力,当我们发现一些行业不再赚钱后,我们能学会生产其它一些没人能和我们竞争的东西。就单独拿Windows系统来说吧,甚至都没有国家尝试过开发其它的操作系统来与之竞争,连试都没试过。他们只是不战而降。



Tom · 17 hours ago 0
And what is the source of the innovation that has made Apple (and many other US companies) successful? That US based R&D, that's where a vast majority of the innovation occurs. Sure the actual manufacture of the components and assembly of the components into iGadgets is done in China, Taiwan, Korea, etc., but it's the R&D that is the source of the innovation that makes those devices what they are.

I'm not saying the US has a monopoly on this type of innovation, but just because products developed by US based companies are made overseas does not equate to that innovation being sourced from overseas.

Another good example that I use nearly every day are ThinkPad computers. These used to be made by IBM, but several years ago IBM sold this business line to Lenovo. In reality Lenovo had been manufacturing the computers for years anyway, but what changed is Lenovo now owned other parts of the business too. BusinessWeek did an article a few years ago about the development of the Lenovo X300 ThinkPad ( [url]http://www.businessweek.com/maga[/url] ... /b4072042350389.htm ), if you read the article what you find out is that these 'Chinese' laptops are initially developed by the same folks in North Carolina who developed them when IBM owned the business, then detailed engineering is done in Japan, with only sourcing and manufacturing done in China.

使苹果获得(以及其它很多美国公司)成功的创新都从何而来?来自于美国的研发,那是绝大多数创新出现的地方。虽然苹果的产品都是由中国、台湾、韩国等国家和地区生产和组装的,但是这此设备最核心的元素创新是来自美国的研发。

我并不是说美国垄断了创新,但是美国公司开发的产品在外国制造并不等于创新也来源于外国。

另外一个很好的例子就是我几乎每天使用的ThinkPad电脑。这曾经是IBM制造的,但是几年前IBM把ThinkPad业务卖给了联想。事实上,联想已经生产ThinkPad好几年了,但是变化只在于联想仍有了此业务剩下的部分。

几年前,《商业周刊》曾刊登过一篇联想X300 ThinkPad的发展史 ( [url]http://www.businessweek.com/maga[/url] ... /b4072042350389.htm ),如果你读过这篇文章,你就会发现,这些“中国”笔记本首先都是由IBM时代就已经存在的北卡罗来纳的同一批人进行开发,然后在日本进行具体设计,中国只负责外包和制造。



Ken · 1 day ago 0
You tell Clayton Christiansen to go to China Foxconn's factory plant and visit that **** on his/her own. And see if those manufacturing can really lead to innovations, LMAO. The NY Times pointed out that because of the assembly line, a lot of workers' hands and fingers got ****ed up because they keep on doing the same stuffs over and over for a million times. Factory work is not like what you think, 1 person assembled a whole car. Its basically you do 1 part n pass it on, then repeat that. They dont even make enough to live a standard life, and your're saying its more innovative in those factory than Apple, Cupertino, CA?

你应该让克莱顿·M·克里斯坦森自己一个人到中国富士康工厂去参观参观。看看制造是不是真的能带来创新,太搞笑了。纽约时报指出过,由于是流水线生产,很多工作的手和指头都变麻木了,因为长期重复同样的工作。工厂里面的工作不是你想的那样,一个人组装一辆车。你只是简单地做一部分,并传给下一个人,然后不断地重复。他们甚至都挣不到可过上标准生活的钱,你却说这些工厂比在美国的苹果公司更有创新力?



Sgt_Buffy 77p · 1 day ago +2
I stated above, we suck at making electronics, probably for that very reason in that it is too expensive. But I was stating explicitly hardware, metals and the like. I and I'm not saying we dominate any industry. I was stating, that from my own personal self-absorbed experience limited to the tools that I use with my own job, the American made tools A) fit better and that their other metal products (Bicycles, knives, hardware, braces, building material etc.) B) Last longer, and the percentage is about (read: +/- many %'s) 10% more expensive but 40% more durable. These are not specific numbers, they are from my personal experience. But I agree in that electronics is not our department.

我上面就说过,我们在制造电子产品方面很不给力,很可能只是因为花费太高了。但是,我明确地指出,在硬件方面,比如金属之类的(,我们更强)。我并不是说我们统治了整个工作领域。我说过,这只是来源于我个人在工作中使用工具的经历 A)更合用,其它那些金属制品(比如自行车、刀、硬件、齿架和建筑材料等)也是;B) 更耐用,平均来说贵10%但耐用性高40%。这不是具体数字,这只是我个人的经验。但我同意电子产品不在其中。



DB-1 · 1 day ago 0
You are really ill-informed Sgt_Buffy ALL electronics we use today had there development and start in the United States at American Companies, research labs and Universitys'. The production of said electronic products were out-sourced outside the United States because of cost. Now some things are still built in the U.S.

楼上,你真是孤陋寡闻啊。我们如今使用的所有电子产品都是由美国公司、研究实验室和大学开发的。我们外包电子产品只是因为自己造花费太高。现在一些东西仍然在美国制造。



vok · 1 day ago +1
Origin of invention and past dominance means little in today's competitive global economy. TV, VCR, LCD, etc. These are US inventions. Auto, steel, machine tooling, shipbuilding, these industries used to be dominated by American companies.

最初的发明和过去的统治地位在现在竞争激烈的世界中意义不大。电视、录像机、液晶显示屏等都是美国发明的。汽车、钢铁、机床、造船等工业过去也是由美国统治的。



DB-1 · 1 day ago -1
American Industry and know how still dominates. The U.S. invented the airplane and still dominates that industry, Henry Ford showed the world how to mass produce and American Farmers still out produce any other, don't count America out just yet.

美国的工业仍然占统治地位。美国发明了飞机,现在仍然统治飞机行业。亨利·福特第一次向世界展示了如何大规模生产汽车,而且美国农民仍在生产其它东西,所以谈工业的时候不能忘了美国。



Ken · 10 hours ago -1
Like I said, we can't dominate everything forever. But the most important thing is we adapt to new things quick n instant unlike our competitors. We used to invent tv, VCR, and etc but then those received too much competitions so we switched. in the past 20 yrs you see big tech companies formed in the US like google, yahoo, eBay, n even Facebook. These company doesn't need to physically produce stuffs but they can still make hundreds of billion. If we look at Japan, in the past 20 yrs, what r some of the new brands that you can think of? None! This is where their economy stop growing. They simply receive too much competition from elsewhere n they refused to enter new industry. Look given their knowledge n tech, they still got no big software tech company that is known to the world.

正如我所说过的,我们无法永远统治所有东西。但是最重要的东西是相比我们的竞争者,我们适应新事物十分迅速及时。我们曾发明了电视、录像机等东西,但这些产品受到的竞争太激烈了,所以我们就转型了。在过去的20年里,美国诞生了很多像google, yahoo, eBay乃至Facebook这样的大型技术公司。

如果我们再看看日本,在过去20年里,你能想到什么新品牌?一个都没有!这就是日本经济停止增长的原因。日本受到了其它国家过多的竞争,但他们却拒绝进入新行业。看看日本,虽然他们有如此强的知识和技术底蕴,他们还是没有任何世界闻名的软件公司。


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