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西方网民热议:为什么中国想要控制南海?


译者:unknown     发布时间:2015-09-04     超过 0 位网友阅读

中国武装侵略过别人,但明显西方发动的战争要多得多

原文地址:http://www.theguardian.com


On 26 May, CNN broadcast an unusual clip of a US navy intelligence flight over the South China Sea. The P-8A Poseidon surveillance plane – one of the newest weapons in the Pentagon's arsenal – had taken off, with a CNN reporter on board, from Clark airbase in the Philippines, once part of America's largest overseas base complex during the cold war. After about 45 minutes, the plane reached its first target – which had, until recently, been an obscure, almost entirely submerged feature in the Spratly Island group. 

五月26日这天,CNN播送了一张美国海军在中国南海航拍情报的非同一般的剪图。这架P-8A波塞冬侦察机——五角大楼军械库中最新的武器之一——携带一名CNN记者从菲律宾的克拉克空军基地出发,它曾是冷战时期美国在海外最大的综合基地。约45分钟之后,这架飞机抵达了它的首个目的地,直至最近,处于南沙群岛的该地一直很隐蔽,几乎是完全是在水下。





NeverNotHereTV ProfessorCruxx
31 Jul 2015 05:09
"Rule the world" is your idea. China was a cultural beacon for millennia, until colonialism applied their superior weapons. Perhaps you don't have a personal history, or don't know anything about your origins? That doesn't mean those that do, have to reduce to your level.

"统治世界"只是你自己的意思。中国几千年来一直是文化的闪耀点,直至殖民主义使用了更高级的武器。也许你并没有个人历史,又或是对自己的由来一无所知?但那并不意味着这些历史必须跟你的降低到一个层次。

If they are able to restore their culture into the world spotlight, then they will try it. China has its share of armed aggression. But it is clear that the west has started many more wars. China hasn't been in a major conflict for 25 years. 

如果他们能够让自己的文化重回世界的聚光灯下,他们会尽力尝试。中国武装侵略过别人,但明显西方发动的战争要多得多。中国25年没有处于主要冲突中了。



NeverNotHereTV ProfessorCruxx
31 Jul 2015 04:46
There not cheap.

没什么是便宜的。



ProfessorCruxx
30 Jul 2015 19:10
reclaiming for it the preeminent place that every schoolchild learns was China's lot for the majority of recorded history.
Brainwashing the next generation into believing that China has an historical right to rule the world . . . dovetails with the huge and wasteful expenditure on overwhelming US military capability. A long-term strategy of preparing for aggression on a global scale.

重申对这里的主权,说早有史料记载,这个人尽皆知的好地方早就是中国的。
给下一代洗脑,让他们相信中国自古以来就有统治世界的权利……为压倒美国的军事能力,进行这么巨大的浪费性支出,这是为在全球范围内进行侵略作长期战略准备。



Tonesbigtrip Andrew Paul Wood
30 Jul 2015 14:26
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.

此评论因违反社区规定,被版主删除,回复也会被删除,更多详情参见"常见问题解答"。 



Tonesbigtrip Andrew Paul Wood
30 Jul 2015 14:23
There are around 70 Aboriginal players in the VFL, none of them are being booed.
As for racism against migrants, asylum seekers, etc:

在VFL大约有70个土著球员,没有人向他们喝倒采。至于反对移民和寻求避难者什么的种族主义:

If I was as stupid as you, I might say something like "own it or piss off", but of course I wouldnt make a dumbass sweeping generalisation like that as its far more complicated and I dont pretend to be a fucking knowitall who thinks that because he goes down there once in a while on holidays or whatever the fuck you do there that he knows better about the situation than a native. Oh, and if youre branching out into Homophobia now for a little more Aussie bashing, maybe next time you go there, go see the Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras, and see the level of support Gay people get in our country. Moron.

如果我象你一样蠢的话,就可能说"要么拥有它,要么滚开"。可我当然不会那么笼统地说这说那,那得有多笨!情况复杂得多,我可不会假装他妈的无所不知——就因为节假日偶尔去过那么几次,或干了点逼事,就自以为比当地人还了解那里的情况。哦,如果你现在患有恐同症,那可是大受澳洲人批判的,也许下次你再去那里,该去看看同性恋狂欢节,那你就会看到我们国家同性恋的支持率有多高了。白痴!



viper217
30 Jul 2015 14:20
I think that this provides a very fruitful opportunity for all the developed countries to source their products elsewhere. As jobs in developed countries dry up, perhaps they need to create manufacturing and home jobs and industries as an essential part of their own home defence and national security.

我认为这给所有发达国家提供了一个大好机会,趁机到别处寻找货源。发达国家就业枯竭,也许他们需要创造制造业和家庭就业的机会,而且把这个产业作为国防和国家安全的一个重要组成部分。



viper217
30 Jul 2015 14:18
I noticed that despite being written entirely in Chinese, the names of the islands were all phoneticised versions of the names westerners had given them in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Is creating knock offs of everybody else's ideas a blind spot in China's national psyche?

我注意到,尽管这些岛屿的名称完全是用中文写的,但名称都是西方人在18、19世纪命名的,是中文音译的。

难道抄袭别人,是中国国民心理上的盲点吗?



Angkor third_eye
30 Jul 2015 14:15
When then will we see any evidence of you trying to understand the positions of the Vietnamese, the Filipinos, the Malaysians, the Bruneians, the Japanese and the South Koreans?
There has been no evidence as yet that you are even aware that they have an interest in the matter.

你愿意了解越南人、菲律宾人、马来西来人、文莱人、日本人和南韩人的立场吗?我们什么时候能看到一点这样的迹象呢?

他们很关注此事,你连这个都没意识到呢。



third_eye Angkor
30 Jul 2015 13:58
Good heavens, that's a whole lot of emotion and anger! Get a hold of yourself. Not everything in this world needs to be seen from a simplistic you against the world perspective. Try understanding the other's position.........that would be a good beginning.

天啊,太多怒气了!息怒啊。在这个世界上并非所有事情都需要像你们那样,过分简单化,不从国际视角看问题。努力理解别人的立场吧……那才是良好开端



Piggy256 Silgen
30 Jul 2015 13:44
My dear sir,
As you well know, Wilhelm II was Queen Victoria's grandson.I refer you to Massie's account quoted by SystemD; it is my source, too.
You may perhaps have preferred "strongly objected" to "refused", though this objection was tantamount to a flat refusal, which, I agree, they could not implement and that, therefore, resulted in a very costly arms race between the two nations...
Yours truly,
Piggy.

亲爱的先生:
如你所知,威廉二世是维多利亚女王的外孙。我建议你查查SystemD引用的Massie的叙述。这也是我的消息来源。

你也许更喜欢"强烈反对",不大喜欢"反对", 虽然这个反对无异于断然拒绝, 我承认,这一点他们无法得偿所愿。于是,两国之间就进行了一场耗资巨大的军备竞赛……
敬启,



Angkor third_eye
30 Jul 2015 12:02
Now I realise that the problem is that you just aren't very bright. Not that I criticise you for that as God loves dumb people, as if he didn't why did he make so many?

现在我意识到,问题在于你不太聪明。我可不是批评你啊,因为神是爱笨蛋的,否则,他为什么会造出这么多笨蛋来?

1. You advance a possible rationale for the Chinese building bases on reefs on the SCS as a move to preempt the US from doing so, using the US base on Diego Garcia as an example of where the US had done that before. 

1。你以美国在迪戈加西亚岛修建美军基地为例,为中国在南海珊瑚礁建设(军事)基地提出一个可能,说中国此举是为了防止美国先在南海岛礁上建立基地

2. You are unaware that China's claims in the SCS are contested by other countries there, specifically Vietnam where disputes in the past have led to exchanges of gunfire.

2。你不知道中国对南海的主权声明,受到了其它国家特别是越南的反对。南海问题争议曾引起多次交火。

3.Now you say that you see nations and governments for what they are not for what you want the world to believe them to be when they're not, despite having not a clue about the history of the SCS dispute nor about the history of the establishment of the US base on Diego Garcia, which was an exercise in collusion with the exercise with the British government and not a grab at unclaimed land.

3。现在你想要世人相信那些国家和政府什么样,就违背事实说你看到的是什么样的。尽管你对南海争端历史、对在迪戈加西亚岛建立美军基地的历史都一无所知,美国在上面建立基地其实是和英国政府勾结,但不是霸占无人认领的土地。

4. You then further demonstrate the dumbness of your comments by saying that (from what I can only work out from my responses to your lunatic theories) "that would include the acknowledgement that the issue of the local inhabitants of Diego Garcia has not been satisfactorily resolved". Well, Sunshine, of course the issue of the local inhabitants on Diego Garcia has not been satisfactorily resolved. 

然后你又说"其中包括承认迪戈加西亚岛居民的问题没有得到满意解决"以此进一步证明你的言论有多蠢, (从中我只能想出对你的疯子理论作何反应)"。嗯,当地居民在迪戈加西亚岛的问题当然还没有得到令人满意的解决。

5.However that is an issue that has got nothing to do with what is happening in the SCS, except to the extent that the Chinese with their nine dash line policy are forcing Vietnamese fishermen and Filipino fishermen, who have been been making their living from the SCS as their ancestors were doing for thousands of years, out of the SCS and excluding them from their traditional livelihoods, and that issue has not been satisfactorily resolved either.

不过这个问题, 与南海目前局势毫无关联。但是中国的九段线政策正把越南渔民和菲律宾渔民,强行赶出他们祖先几千年来赖以为生的南海, 剥夺他们的传统生计, 这个问题同样没有得到圆满解决。

6. Not that I am surprised with you not being that for such is your low level of intelligence that you see things only through the prism of "the concerns and interests of geo-political players" totally ignoring the interests of other parties such as Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia and Brunei, which are all affected by China's SCS claims.

你不这样我并不感到惊讶,因为你的智商低, 你只能通过"地缘政治参与者担心的问题和利益"看待问题,完全无视越南、菲律宾、马来西亚和文莱等其他各方的利益都受到中国对南海主张的影响。

7. If you had the intelligence to inform yourself of the consequence for those countries and their people of China's SCS claim as well as for Japan and South Korea then you might have a chance of seeing why that claim deserves condemnation and not understanding and acceptance. That leaving aside whatever interest the United States has in the issue.

如果你知道中国南海主张对日本、韩国和那些国家及其人民的影响,那么你可能有机会明白为什么这种主张应受谴责、无法理解和无法接受,不管美国在这一问题上有什么利益。

But is clear that you do not. You don't give a stuff about those millions of people and yet the plight of the Chagos Islanders presses upon you. What hypocrisy.

但是很明显,你不会。你对那几百万人漠不关心, 反倒去关心查戈斯岛民的困境。真虚伪! 



NeverNotHereTV
30 Jul 2015 11:54
I felt quite informed after reading this, and Mr. French went into more detail than in a normal Guardian article. China's moves in the South China Sea seem quite alarming to many. Is this a grab for fisheries and oil, or undersea minerals from its small neighbours? Or could there be another motivation?

读完这篇文章后我受益匪浅,French先生写的比卫报平时的文章更加详细。中国在南海的行动似乎触动了许多人的神经。这是为了从他的弱小邻国中攫取渔业资源和石油,或者其他海底矿物吗?或者其他什么可能的动机?

I am not a China scholar and I don't intend to defend Mao Zedong. But now the west is interpreting these moves as a China seeking to enslave the small countries of SE Asia. The statements attributed to Deng Xiaoping, of "hiding one's capabilities and biding time", are not hostile or expansionary acts toward their neighbours.

我不是一个中国学者,也不是试图去捍卫毛泽东。但现在,西方解释这些行为是因为中国正谋求征服东南亚的小国。邓小平所宣称的"韬光养晦"并不是有敌意的或是用有扩张性的行为来对待周边国家。

Xi Jinping has named "the China dream". All of Asia has remarkably diverse populations, and all nations struggle with a "narrative to create a national identity". Even the Vietnamese story of 1000's of years of Chinese subjugation is just a fiction to bring diverse peoples together. There was no Vietnam then, nor one people for 1000's of years of tiny kingdoms, and most of those years were in peaceful coexistence with their Chinese neighbours.

习近平提出了"中国梦"。全亚洲有着异常繁杂的人口,所有的国家都在为"增强国家认同感"而努力。甚至述说中国征服越南1000年的虚构故事仅仅是为了加强民族团结。那时还没有越南这个国家,更没有一个人统治这个小王国1000年,在大部分时间里,他们与中国邻居和平共处。

America doesn't have any dream, since their history has no glory other than "taming the wild west" and killing native Americans. Therefore big picture identities of other countries are most often discounted. Except we believe Israel should live in the "Promised Land".

美国没有任何梦想,他们的历史没有除"驯服狂野西部"和杀害印第安人以外的荣耀。因此,其他国家的大国身份才总被大打折扣。除了我们相信以色列人应该生活在"乐土"上。

America doesn't kill to get what it wants, unless you count North Koreans, North Vietnamese, Afghans, Iraqis, and countless victims of proxy wars and the support for dozens of ruthless neo-liberal dictators. Western nations bring down trade barriers, the protection of your industries, export your jobs, control your capital markets, and punish you both for not borrowing from them, and then when you can't pay. We have just witnessed the austerity battles in Europe. Those jobs that they do create abroad are based on low education, low productivity, low environmental protection and low wages. It is a trap that is very difficult to find your way out of. Some countries, like Brics, don't want to give away that power.

美国不是靠杀害去得到他们想要的东西,除非你算上朝鲜,北越,阿富汗人,伊拉克人以及无数代理人战争的受害者和对几十个新自由主义独裁者的支持。西方国家打破贸易壁垒,资产保护,输出你的工作,控制你的资本市场,你不向他们借钱或是支付不起时,他们就惩罚你。我们刚刚见证了欧洲的紧缩大战。这些在国外创造的工作又都基于低教育、低生产率、低环保和低工资。这是一个陷阱,并且很难找到出路。一些国家,例如金砖五国,也不想放弃这种力量。

America also allows killing at home with 100,000 gun deaths per decade, and a nice jail cell for 2.2 million people that society has no room for. China has only 15% of America's guns spread over 425% of America's population. China keeps only 16% of America's lockup per 100k people. Chinese young girls freely hitch hike around the country in safety. "Everybody is so nice", they say.

美国允许在家持枪导致每十年就有100000起枪支致死事件,一个不错的牢房正提供给那些被社会所容不下的220万人。中国人口是美国的425%,但枪支持有量却只有美国的16%。中国每10万人所拥有的监狱的数量只有美国的16%。中国的年轻女孩们能安全的在全国各地免费搭便车。"每个人都很好。"她们说。

China's command economy had doubled the well-being of its population in the last decade. In the west with less people in North America and Europe combined, those economies are in a permeant recession boasting of a 1.5% annual growth (or whatever, at the level of a bookkeeping error). People's pensions have eroded and real estate values set back 25 years. In fact, western style democracy cannot do anything in the long term without a bogyman. So we find that all western geopolitical rhetoric (spilling over into this story), is about containment of Russia, containment of China, containment of the Muslims, fight to eradicate ISIS, the Taliban. The western kind of monetary hegemony runs a society bankrupt of long term values, (which are the only real values).

在过去十年里,中国的计划经济使人口福利增长了一倍。在西方人口较少的北美及欧洲地区,他们的经济正处于衰退之中却宣称有1.5%的年增长(或者其他什么水平的记账错误)。人们的养老金被削弱,房地产价值缩水了25年。事实上,从长远看,西方式的民主离开了恶魔式的行为是不能够做任何事的。所以我们发现,所有西方的地缘政治说辞(延伸到这个故事),无外乎是俄罗斯的遏制政策、中国的遏制政策、穆斯林的遏制政策、铲除伊斯兰国组织(ISIS)、塔利班。西方的那种金融霸权运行着一个致使社会破产的长远价值(这是唯一的价值)。

I see it as a China that doesn't want any American oil companies in the South China Sea. It will be more difficult to remove the oil rigs, once they are erected. The Asian tigers cannot defend themselves from the western banking cartels. Only China can police these waters. Do you think China will have the world's largest military and navy so that they can subdue Vietnam or Thailand? It is only America that is the world dominator, and China plays a very tough slow motion game, that looks more and more like a sure thing.

我看到中国不希望任何美国的石油公司在南海出现。这将更加难以清除石油钻井平台,一旦他们被安装。"亚洲虎们"不能从西方银行那里得到什么来捍卫自己。只有中国能保卫他们的海洋。你认为中国将拥有世界上最大的军队和海军,使他们能够征服越南或者泰国吗?只有美国是世界的主宰,而中国玩着一个艰难的慢动作游戏,这看起来越来越确信。

Is China now subjugating its neighbours? I live in Thailand, and Chinese people are the backbone of Thai tourism, not the west. Chinese have long been industrialists in this area, but it's less visible than tourism. We'll see if Chinese high speed rail, highways, power generation, shipping infrastructure and pipelines are forthcoming in SE Asia.

中国现在正征服着他的邻居吗?我住在泰国,而泰国旅游业的支柱是中国游客,而不是西方游客。中国人长期以来在这个地区都是实业家,但没有游客明显。我们将拭目以待中国建造的高铁,公路,发电站,货运基础设施以及管道设施能否在东南亚出现。


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