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英国网民评论北京努力遏制贫困和污染


Beijing struggles to curb poverty and pollution as it keeps markets open
译者:unknown     发布时间:2018-06-04     超过 0 位网友阅读

历史揭示这一项政策是天真和自私的,因为对那些留下来收拾残局的人来说,这是毁灭性的

原文地址:https://www.theguardian.com


There is a steel toboggan run offering rides down the side of the Great Wall of China that would fail the UK’s most basic health and safety tests. It could be a metaphor for the Chinese economy if as many people believe Communist party leaders allow a credit bubble to run out of control in a desperate attempt to maintain an electrifying 7% growth rate. 

在中国长城的一侧有一个可供搭乘的钢铁平底雪橇,(其安全程度)无法通过英国最基本的健康和安全测试。如果中国为了维持7%的经济增长率而让信贷泡沫失控,那么这个雪橇将成为中国经济(下滑)的暗喻。

北京保持市场开放

The Chinese are not alone when they turn a blind eye to excessive borrowing. Most nations depend on large and growing amounts of borrowing to fund everything from investment to the most basic services. In China’s case much of the debt is being used to offset the transition from a state that manufactures iron steel and cheap electronics textiles and consumer goods to one that embraces hi-tech industries attuned to environmental concerns. This creates millions of losers in traditional smoke-stack industries lots of them in the north and west of the country.

并不是只有中国对过度借贷(问题)视而不见。从投资(项目)到基本服务(设施),大多数国家依赖其庞大不断增长的借款来资助一切。就中国来说,大部分的债务都用来抵消从一个制造钢铁、廉价电子产品、纺织品和生活消费品的国家过渡到一个拥有可协调环境问题的高科技工业的国家的费用。这使许多在中国西部和北部的(造成严重空气污染的)烟囱工业(公司)倒闭。

It’s a story that is familiar in Europe where governments spent the 1980s racking up huge debts to support dying industries while the UK spent its oil revenues funding the unemployment benefits of steelworkers and miners. But the scale of China’s industries is such that when a transition is under way the borrowing is colossal and the threat to the rest of the world is unnerving.

这是一个在欧洲人人熟知的故事,1980年代,政府耗费巨额债款支持夕阳产业,而与此同时英国则将其石油收入花费在炼钢工人和矿工的失业津贴上。但介于中国产业规模巨大,过渡期间将产生巨额借贷并对世界其他地方造成令人不安的威胁。

The International Monetary Fund warned last week that the debt building up in China’s state-owned industries was a threat to the country’s stability. Private debts are also stratospheric mainly from a property boom that has left many people with sky-high monthly mortgage payments or dizzying rents. Erik Britton director of Fathom Consulting an economic consultancy says he is concerned that China’s debt-fuelled growth is building towards a major crash some time in the next five years.

国际货币基金组织上周警告说,中国国有工业的债务积累对国家的稳定构成威胁。 私人债务也是也是同样的情况,它主要来自房地产热潮,给许多人带来了高额的月付按揭和令人眩晕的房租金额。据华顿咨询(Fathom Consulting)——一个经济咨询公司的主管艾瑞克·布雷顿(Erik Britto)称其担心中国债务的持续激增将会在未来五年内酿成大祸。

Diana Choyleva a China expert who runs Enodo Economics a consultancy says that in answer to the growing crisis the Communist party is exerting greater influence over indebted state-owned industries ending a long period when competition with foreign companies was considered a solution.

经营nodo Economics公司的黛安娜·乔伊列娃(Diana Choyleva)是一个中国问题专家,她表明为应对日益严重的危机,中国将与国外公司进行竞争作为长期债务结束的解决方案,这将使它(中国)对负债累累的国有企业发挥更大的影响力。

In August Reuters reported that more than a dozen top European companies operating in China had met to discuss their concerns about the growing role of the party in joint ventures with state-owned enterprises. One executive told the news agency that party officials wanted state-owned enterprises to have the final say in joint decisions and allow the local party secretary to be the joint venture chairman.

今年八月,路透社报道了在中国经营的十几家欧洲顶级公司已经会晤,探讨了他们对党在与国有企业合营发展中日益增强的影响力的担忧。一位执行官告诉通讯社,党的官员希望国有企业在共同决策中有最终决定权,并希望能够容许地方党委书记成为合资公司的主席。

Choyleva believes that Beijing’s challenge over the next couple of years is to exert more control to deal with bad debts built up by state-owned enterprises without scaring off foreign banks and joint venture partners which could take on some of the debt themselves.

乔伊列娃(Choyleva)认为,北京未来几年面临的挑战是在不吓跑可以替他们分担一些债务的外国银行和合资伙伴的情况下,增强其控制力度处理由国营企业累积的坏账

Keith Burnett vice-chancellor of Sheffield University is a regular visitor to China and a mainstay of UK delegations to Beijing. He says he is struggling to persuade UK businesses to enter joint ventures with Chinese partners despite the obvious opportunities of selling to a country of 1.4 billion people.

谢菲尔德大学副校长基思·伯内特(Keith Burnett)是中国的常客,也是英国驻北京代表队的支柱。 他表示,尽管有将(企业)卖给14亿人口国家的大好机会,他正在努力劝说英国企业与中国成为合作伙伴进行合资企业。

“There is a real push at senior levels in Beijing to get manufacturing higher up the value chain. They know they need to expand in aerospace electric cars pharmaceuticals. This is coupled with a worry that many people are being left behind in steelworks and basic manufacturing plants.

 “北京的高层人士真的推高了制造业在价格链上的价值。 他们知道自己需要在航空航天,电动汽车和药品等方面进行扩张。 不过他们也存有很多人将被遗弃在炼钢厂和基础制造厂里的担忧。

“British companies are fearful they will lose their intellectual property. They are happy to sell their wares in China but they say ‘we don’t want to share information with you if it means losing our crown jewels’” he says.

 “英国公司害怕他们将失去知识产权。 他们很高兴在中国卖他们的商品,但他们说“如果这意味着失去我们的皇冠上的珠宝,我们就不想和你分享信息”。

However a courts system that offers an independent arbitration service seems a distant prospect. Companies remain sceptical about their hopes of pursuing intellectual-property theft claims; foreign investors are wary of buying the shares and bonds of companies that might arbitrarily be declared bankrupt. It is the courts that hear bankruptcy petitions and Choyleva says there is little consistency over why some are declared bankrupt and others not.

然而,提供du立仲裁服务的法院制度似乎是个遥远的前景。 公司对于追究知识产权盗窃的索赔仍然持怀疑态度。 外国投资者对在购买那些可能会宣布破产的公司的股票和债券上十分谨慎, 法庭会受理破产申请,Choyleva说,为什么有些公司被宣布破产,而另外一些公司则没有,(法院的受理结果)很不一致。

In 2013 the party’s third plenum reform statement said the market should play a “decisive” role in resource allocation while reaffirming that the state must play a “leading role” in the economy. It seems clear that as the population gets older and generating previous levels of growth gets harder the state is grabbing back key levers of power. The market is still useful but difficult times and competing aims call for more direction from the centre. Somehow Xi must keep raising 10 million people a year out of poverty promote a green economy and open Chinese markets to foreign competition and collaboration. It appears that the first two are incompatible with the third.

2013年,党的第三次全会改革声明说,市场应在资源配置中发挥“决定性”作用,同时重申国家必须在经济中发挥“主导作用”。 很明显,随着人口的老龄化和维持先前的增长水平越来越难,国家正努力抓回权力的关键杠杆。 市场依然有用,但艰难时期再加上目标冲突,意味着中央必须发挥更大的指导作用。 不管怎么说,中国必须每年使千万人口脱贫,促进绿色经济,开放中国市场与国外竞争与合作。但看起来前两个论述与第三个不兼容。




thegreatfatsby 2d ago
Growth growth growth. Nothing grows forever. Not even the universe. To imagine that global capitalism can continue to grow on a planet with finite minerals space water and land is the height of lunacy.

经济增长增长增长。没有什么永恒的经济增长。即便是宇宙。认为全球资本主义可以在拥有有限矿物、空间、水和土地资源的星球上持续经济增长的这种幻想简直是高度精神错乱。



Alan Rowe  thegreatfatsby 2d ago
The bit about the universe is an unknown no matter how conceited science has become.As for growth well even life itself demands this surely ?China’s debt is internal it is a stress on itself.The US is approaching $ 20 Trillion if debt most of this is held by US institutions. The other rarely talked about side of this coin is the US is owed $17-18 Trillion.Debt is often used to manipulate people even the poor old UK is owed £ 2.5 Trillion yet all we hear on the news is the staggering national debt.It is indeed a funny old world !

不管科学(研究)变得有多自负(发达),关于宇宙的那一点是个未知数。至于经济增长,连生命本身都在这么要求(增长)不是吗?中国的债务是内部的,是对自身的一种压力。美国将近有20万亿美元的国债,大部分由美国(金融)机构持有。另一个很少提及的问题是,美国对外欠下了17-18万亿美元的债务。债务通常被用来操纵人,甚至连又穷又老的英国都负债2.5万亿英镑。然而我们听到的所有新闻都是惊人的国家债务。
这真是一个有趣的旧世界!



PonyBoyUK  thegreatfatsby 2d ago
Apparently they would call you the naïve left; that you're living in a bubble....

显然他们会称你为天真的左派;你生活在一个泡沫里....

It helps them sleep at night...

这有助于他们晚上睡眠…



FTWftw  vonZeppelin 1d ago
I'd say we're in the process of doing that. Have you noticed the state of this planet? It's in the process of sending us to extinction.

我想说的是,我们正在这样做(的途中)。你注意到这个星球的状态了吗?它正在将我们推向灭绝的过程中。



vonZeppelin  FTWftw 1d ago
State? Where's the benchmark? It's polluted possibly but who says it means the end of mankind?

国家吗?基准在哪里?可能是被污染了但谁说这是人类的末日?



JeanClawedBrexit  Alan Rowe 1d ago
Who owes the UK £2.5tn ?
Do they owe it to the UK government or private interests ?

谁欠英国2.5万亿英镑?
他们欠英国政府还是私人的?



Argent61  thegreatfatsby 1d ago
Global business will hollow out the planet before it will stop its blind pursuit of profit. We should leave a share of the Earth's resources for future generations.

全球商业将在它停止对利润的盲目追求之前挖空地球。我们应该把地球资源的一部分留给子孙后代。



FTWftw  vonZeppelin 1d ago
I suppose you could call the benchmark how it was before we industrialised..possibly polluted?? It is without doubt horribly polluted. 
Something's going to end us cause nothing lasts forever. Running out of resources. Climate change effects over the next 50 years and our capacity for stupidity are all pretty good candidates to be that cause.

我想,在我们工业化之前,你可以称这为基准。可能被污染了?不用说肯定是严重污染。
有些东西会终结我们,因为没有什么是永恒不变的的。资源会消耗殆尽。
未来50年的气候变化和我们愚蠢的能力是(导致终结我们)最佳的候选原因。



globalgypsy  thegreatfatsby 1d ago
To imagine that global capitalism can continue to grow on a planet with finite minerals

想象一下,全球资本主义可以持续在有限矿物的星球上经济增长。

Fortunately living in an infinite universe we are not limited to the resources of Earth alone.

幸运的是,我们生活在一个无限的宇宙中,我们并不仅仅局限于地球的资源。



LordMorganofGlossop  Argent61 24h ago
The 'blind pursuit of profit' has helped enable you and I to have plentiful cheap consumer goods - such as the computers we type on - and it provides jobs across the world and also generates tax receipts which fund our welfare state and public services.

“对利润的盲目追求”帮助你我拥有了大量的廉价商品,比如我们所使用的电脑——它为全世界提供了就业机会,同时也提供了税收收入以便我们建设福利国家和公共服务。。



gtegte  Alan Rowe 22h ago
Bizzare.

太怪异了。

Social security debt and medicare in the US is $220 trillion on top of the borrowing
State and civil service pensions are £10 trillion on top of the £1.5 trillion borrowing.

在美国,社会保障债务和联邦医疗保险(medicare)的规模达到220万亿美元外加借贷。
而国家和公务员养老金则除1.5万亿英镑之外还外加10万亿英镑。

So lets see. US defaults on its borrowing. What effect on China? Lots of Chinese savings disappear.
US puts trade sanctions in and you have 10 20 million Chinese unemployed overnight. Stock market tanks savings go and you have massive instability.

所以让我们来看看。所谓的美国债务违约。对中国有什么影响?大量的中国储蓄消失了。
美国实施贸易制裁,一夜之间就有1000万~2000万中国人失业。股市储蓄存款减少,造成(中国)极大的不稳定。

Equally look at buildings at night in the new towns. No lights. All built on debt. China has the weak hand.
So your £2.5 trillion for the UK what debts are those and what's your source? My bet is that the big debts are excluded.

同样地,在夜晚看新镇的建筑,没有灯光。所有的建设都是靠借贷。中国的发展有疲软的一面。
这2.5万亿英镑的英国债务是什么债务,怎么来的?我打赌这些巨额债务都被排除在外了。



GutsandGlory 2d ago
Party leaders have allowed a massive state and private sector borrowing binge

政党领导允许大规模的国有和私营部门的借贷狂潮。

A policy that history reveals is as naive and selfish as it is ruinous well for those who are left to pick up the pieces. When Corbyn's crack squad implement their "new politics" (new to anyone under the age of 40 perhaps but an old failed ideology nonetheless) it will be the exception I'm sure and definitely work this time there are chants and all sorts.

历史揭示这一项政策是天真和自私的,因为对那些留下来收拾残局的人来说,这是毁灭性的(灾难)。
当科尔宾的精锐小队执行他们的"新政治"的时候(可能对四十岁以下的人来说这是一种新的政策,尽管如此它只是一个陈旧的失败的意识形态)这是一个例外。
我敢肯定这次会成功,因为有各种各种的口号(在宣传鼓吹)。

(注:杰里米·科尔宾:立场较为激进,是英国工党著名的“老左派”,现任工党党魁, 主张国有化,反对君主立宪制)



LondonEpicurean  Gelion 1d ago
We’re all a lot richer than we would have been 40 years ago. Free markets have lifted billions out of disease and poverty. Socialism invariably fails when people realise they will not receive the true value of their labour they stop working. So how do you make them work? By force. Socialism leads to death. Yippee.

我们都比40年前富裕了很多。自由市场已使数十亿人摆脱了疾病和贫困。当人们意识到劳动付出得不到应有的回报时,他们会罢工,此时社会主义必然失败。那你怎么让他们工作呢?用武力。社会主义会导致死亡。太好了!



Argent61  LondonEpicurean 1d ago
In today's terms Epicurus would have been deemed a socialist.

在当今的定义来看,伊壁鸠鲁会被认为是社会主义者。
(注:伊壁鸠鲁(希腊文:Z4;π^3;κουρο`2;,英文:Epicurus,公元前341 - 前270年),古希腊哲学家、无神论者(被认为是西方第一个无神论哲学家),伊壁鸠鲁学派的创始人。他的学说的主要宗旨就是要达到不受干扰的宁静状态,并要学会享乐。)



LizCardiff  LondonEpicurean 1d ago
Rubbish. No city streets were full of homeless. Young people had the chance of further and higher education with no debts and the chance of paid apprenticeships with skilled well paid jobs at the end of their training. Also other full time jobs were plentiful and did not have to be subsidised by the state.

瞎说。没有哪条城市街道挤满了无家可归的人。在没有债务的情况下,年轻人有机会受到更进一步的高等教育,在技能培训结束时,付过学费的学徒们有机会获得高薪工作。另外,其他的全职工作岗位也很充足,不需要依靠政府的补贴(生活)。

Renting rooms or houses was easily affordable for anyone in work or training and buying a house was something that we all could do if in full time work in our early twenties.

对于任何工作或处于培训的人来说,都能轻而易举负担起租房间或是整套房的费用,如果我们在20岁出头的时候做全职工作,我们都可以买房。

I know. I was there.

我都知道。因为我当时就在那里。



FTWftw  LizCardiff 1d ago
Globalisation and overpopulation are the reasons things are not like that now.

全球化和人口过剩是导致现在不似之前的原因。



russian  FTWftw 1d ago
Nearly 50% of our politicians/government are private landlords. They're quite happy with the status quo re housing.

近50%的政治家或政府是私人业主。他们对住房现状很满意。



HappyExpat50 1d ago
Just China ?

仅仅是中国才这样?

Is this phenomenon not endemic throughout most of the World ?
What is the cause of this phenomenon ?
That magic word '' Growth ''

这种现象在世界上大部分地区不是很普遍吗?
造成这种现象的原因是什么?
就是那个神奇的词“(经济)增长”。

How are the magicians that conjure up this magical illusion of '' Growth ''

魔术师是如何变出这个神奇的“增长”错觉呢。

The World Bank The IMF Central Banks et al.

世界银行,国际货币基金组织、中央银行等等。

Picture starting to come into focus yet ?

脑中浮现出关联和重点了吗?

What does that '' Growth '' require ?
Rampant Capitalism which in turn requires rampant Consumerism which in turn requires rampant population growth which requires rampant debt when cold hard cash runs out.
Which all makes a complete mockery of the fake fight against Climate Change.
You cannot fight Climate Change whilst demanding growth.

“增长”需要什么?
猖獗的资本主义需要猖獗的消费主义,而这又需要猖獗的人口增长,当现金耗尽时,就需要大量的债务。
所有的一切都是对关于气候变化的虚假斗争的嘲弄。
你不能在对抗气候变化问题的时候还要求(经济)增长。



FTWftw  HappyExpat50 1d ago
You can't fight climate changewith over a billion people having a high standard of living. Nor by getting the poor of this world out of poverty.

你不能在超过10亿人拥有高质量高标准生活的情况下对抗气候变化问题。也不能让穷人摆脱贫困。



BruceMullinger  HappyExpat50 1d ago
One day mankind will understand the folly of perpetual growth.

总有一天人类会明白(经济)永久增长是多么愚蠢。



LordMorganofGlossop  HappyExpat50 1d ago
What do you mean by "growth" though?! Why is growth bad now all of a sudden - it's been the motor of progress throughout our history (the industrial revolution for example).

你说的“增长”是什么意思?为什么现在突然说经济增长是件坏事了——它一直是推动我们历史进步的动力(例如工业ge命)。

How can environmentalists green lobbyists or political parties sell us 'anti-growth' policies if they cause reduced standards of living less jobs worse public services etc?

环保主义者、环保游说群体或政党怎么能向我们兜售“反增长”政策呢,即使这些政策降低了人们的生活水平、减少了工作岗位、降低了公共服务的质量也在所不惜吗?


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