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巴基斯坦

中国的歼轰七能否满足巴基斯坦空军的纵深打击需求?


Is the Chinese JH-7 an Answer to the Pakistan Air Force’s Deep Strike Needs?
译者:unknown     发布时间:2020-07-27     超过 0 位网友阅读

J16不是更适合吗?JH7的设计不是过时了吗?期待大佬解答




Despite its potent display of combat capability during the Balakot standoff, the PAF requires additional platforms to balance against a much larger Indian Air Force.

尽管巴空军在巴拉科特对峙中展示了强大的作战能力,但它需要更多的作战平台来对抗规模大得多的印度空军。

中国的歼轰七能否满足巴基斯坦空军的纵深打击需求?

Amidst sustained tensions between the two nuclear armed South Asian neighbors, the Indian Air Force is scheduled to receive the first batch of four state-of-the-art Rafale fighter jets by the end of July 22. The 7.87 billion euro Rafale deal between France and New Delhi for a total order of 36 jets was finally inked in September 216, after much controversy and delay. According to the delivery schedule, the Indian Air Force shall receive all jets by May 222. Armed with Meteor missiles and a highly sophisticated electronic warfare suite, New Delhi’s Rafale acquisition threatens to tilt the balance of power in South Asia in the IAF’s favor.

在这两个拥有核武器的南亚邻国持续紧张的局势下,印度空军计划在22年7月底前接收首批4架最先进的阵风战斗机。216年9月,法国和印度签署了总额为78.7亿欧元的阵风战机合同,总共购买36架战机。根据交付计划,印度空军将在222年5月前获得所有战机。阵风战机装备有流星导弹和高度精密的电子战装备,新德里的阵风采购,可能会使南亚的军力平衡向有利于印度的方向倾斜。

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has been following the Indian Air Force’s modernization program with keen interest, but budget constraints mean that Islamabad’s chances of acquiring a fighter jet of similar capability are slim. Instead, Pakistan seems to be focusing on the latest variant of its indigenous JF-17 Thunder multi-role fighter.

巴基斯坦空军一直密切关注印度空军的现代化计划,但预算限制意味着伊斯兰堡获得类似能力的战斗机的机会渺茫。相反,巴基斯坦似乎专注于国产JF-17雷电多用途战斗机的最新改型。

In the event of an all-out conventional war, the PAF’s limited frontline air assets are at risk of getting overstretched. More worryingly for Islamabad, the Indian Navy operates a sizeable independent air arm, which can be utilized in a conflict scenario to target Pakistan’s coastal industrial hub of Karachi. The much smaller Pakistan Navy does not operate fighter jets, instead relying on the PAF for aerial maritime strike operations.

一旦爆发全面的常规战争,巴空军有限的前线空中力量将面临超负荷的危险。对伊斯兰堡来说,更令人担忧的是,印度海军拥有一支相当大的du立空军,可以在发生冲突的情况下用来打击位于卡拉奇的巴基斯坦沿海工业中心。而规模小得多的巴基斯坦海军并不使用战斗机,而是依赖巴基斯坦空军进行空中海上打击行动。

In addition to their low maintenance and impressive safety record, the Spey engine’s utility lies in the fact that it is designed specifically for sustained low altitude flight below the radar horizon of enemy naval vessels. Despite significant advances in jet engine development since the Cold War, the majority of engines today are designed for mid-to-high altitude flight. Flying at low altitude to avoid radar detection for longer periods thus decreases much of the engines’ range.

除了低维护和令人印象深刻的安全记录,斯贝发动机的实用性在于它是专门为在低于敌方海军舰艇的雷达视野空域进行持续低空飞行而设计的。尽管自冷战以来喷气发动机的发展取得了重大进步,但目前大多数发动机都是为中高空飞行设计的。为了避免雷达侦测而进行较长时间的低空飞行,会大大减少发动机的航程。

The JH-7 also complements the Pakistan Navy’s combat doctrine, which is based on the anti-access/area denial (A2/AD) blueprint. The PN’s three Khalid-class submarines form the linchpin of their A2/AD strategy, with the wartime obxtive of preventing an attempted blockade of the vital Karachi port by the Indian Navy. Acquisition of the JH -7 by Pakistan would provide Islamabad with lethal capability to considerably limit the maneuvering capacity of the Indian Navy in the proximity of Karachi port.

JH-7还补充了巴基斯坦海军的作战理论,该理论基于反进入/区域封锁(A2/AD)的蓝图。巴海军的三艘哈利德级潜艇构是其A2/AD战略的关键,其战时目标是防止印度海军企图封锁重要的卡拉奇港口。巴基斯坦购买JH-7将为伊斯兰堡提供致命能力,大大限制印度海军在卡拉奇港口附近的机动能力。

Also, the JH-7, with its longer combat range, heavy payload capacity, and ability to fly under enemy radar cover provides Islamabad with an offensive capacity targeted at India’s protracted western coastline. Hence, acquisition of the JH-7 by Pakistan serves both defensive and offensive purposes. The improved JH-7A variant currently in service with the PLA Air Force is capable to carry over seven tonnes of armament, including four KD-88/YJ-83 anti-ship missiles.

此外,JH-7具有较长的作战距离、重型有效载荷能力和在敌人雷达覆盖区域飞行的能力,为伊斯兰堡提供针对印度漫长的西部海岸线的进攻能力。因此,巴基斯坦获得JH-7既可以满足防御目的,也可以满足进攻目的。目前在PLA空军服役的改进型JH-7A能够携带超过7吨的武器,包括四枚KD-88/YJ-83反舰导弹。

The capability to carry long range anti-ship missiles, which can be launched more than 1 miles away from their targets, means that the JH-7 is able to utilize an asymmetric “hit and run” strategy before enemy air defenses can effectively engage with it. This doctrine was perhaps most aptly demonstrated by the Argentine Air Force during the 1982 Falklands War, as French Super Etendard strike aircraft armed with Exocet missiles sank two British warships.

此外,JH-7具有较长的作战距离、重型有效载荷能力和在敌人雷达覆盖区域飞行的能力,为伊斯兰堡提供针对印度漫长的西部海岸线的进攻能力。因此,巴基斯坦获得JH-7既可以满足防御目的,也可以满足进攻目的。目前在PLA空军服役的改进型JH-7A能够携带超过7吨的武器,包括四枚KD-88/YJ-83反舰导弹。

One alternative to the JH-7 for Pakistan is its existing arsenal of cruise missiles, but this option has its own pitfalls. First, cruise missiles follow a predictable trajectory and are vulnerable to interception by India’s air defense network and fighter aircraft such as the Sukhoi 3 MKI. Second, the use of cruise missiles, even in an all-out conflict, presents a significant leap in terms of escalation. As such, a cruise missile attack by either New Delhi or Islamabad can lead to an eventual nuclear exchange.

对于巴基斯坦来说,JH-7的另一种选择是其现有库存的巡航导弹,但这种选择也有其缺陷。首先,巡航导弹的飞行轨迹可以预测,很容易被印度防空网络和苏-3mki等战斗机拦截。其次,巡航导弹的使用,即使是在全面冲突中,也是战争升级方面的一个重大飞跃。因此,新德里或伊斯兰堡的巡航导弹袭击可能导致最终的核战争。

Having extensive prior experience in operating and maintaining Chinese-built aircraft such as the H-5, J-6, and F-7, acquisition of the JH-7 by Pakistan and its effective combat use for the heavy strike role presents an ideal “stop-gap” solution for the PAF until sufficient numbers of the JF-17 Block 3 are inducted. The Chinese also appear eager to sell much of their JH-7 fleet, showcasing the fighter bomber for sale at air shows such as the China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition. As prospects of inducting foreign jets from Western countries appear bleak, the JH-7 appears to be the PAF’s only viable option to assert itself in a volatile region.

巴基斯坦空军对中国飞机(如H-5, J-6, 和F-7)有着丰富的操作和维护经验,在引入足够数量的JF-17 Block 3之前,获得JH-7并有效利用其重型打击作用,对巴基斯坦而言是一种理想的“权宜之计”的解决方案。中国似乎也急于出售大部分JH-7机队,在中国国际航空航天博览会等航空展上展示这种待售的战斗机轰炸机。由于引进西方国家飞机的前景黯淡,JH-7似乎是巴基斯坦空军在这个动荡地区巩固自身唯一可行的选择。




Aasimkhan
Isnt J16 more suitable? Isnt JH7 an out dated design? comments of experts please.

J16不是更适合吗?JH7的设计不是过时了吗?期待大佬解答。



Alternatiiv
JH-7 looks like a Mig-23, design might be outdated but if it''s in service with PLAAF, then surely they have upgraded it well.
Does Pakistan need it though? I am not sure, I don''t see a purpose since most of the focus for nuclear warhead delivery is via missile launchers, and rocket launchers for cross border strikes. Where needed, cruise missiles and AGM''s can easily be deployed by the current fleet of PAF, so this plane doesn''t really serve a purpose for us.

JH-7看起来像米格-23,设计可能过时了,但是如果它在中国空军服役,那么他们肯定已经对它进行了很好的升级。
但是巴基斯坦需要吗?我不确定,我看不出这样做的目的,因为大多数人都把运载核弹头的焦点放在导弹发射装置上,以及用于跨界打击的火箭发射装置上。在需要的地方,目前的PAF机队可以很容易的部署巡航导弹和空地导弹,所以这种飞机对我们来说并没有真正的用处。



Aasimkhan
Especially when the author is himself saying that they are needed only till the time enough Jf17B3s become available. So he means these planes are needed only till Block 3s arrive ? Block 3s will be here much before we induct JH7s, if at all.

特别是作者自己都说,这种飞机只在巴空军获得足够多的JF-17 Block 3之前才有需要。他的意思是,这些飞机在Block 3到位之前才需要?如果真是这样,没准我们引进JH7之前,Block 3就到位了。



Foxtrot Alpha
exactly so are we looking to induct a new fighter for a long period of short period / stop gap. This is what going to define our future acquisitions.
Author is confused himself, starts pitching with a Flanker with deep strike capability and then adds in a pinch of Light Combat Aircraft / Lightweight contender .... Bhai kehna ka chahta hai.....How is a light combat aircraft suppose to hit enemy deep in their territory and then RTB safely

正是如此,我们正期待着引进一种新的战斗机,来填补这个间隙。这将定义我们未来的军机采购。
作者自己都糊涂了……一种轻型战斗机怎么可能打击敌人的纵深领土,并且安全返回。



PradoTLC
No.
nothing less than 5 generation is adequate for deep strikes.

不行,
任何低于五代的战斗机都不足以执行纵深打击。



Shah_Deu
Is there a way we can wreak havoc on mumbai (and/or pune ~ 15km from coast) in case of them hitting our bigger cities? Considering Mumbai alone contributes to over 4% of their foreign trade, this is where we can hurt them and hurt them hard. Can we do it without relying on surface based missiles (cruise/ballistic) of any type (considering that a rise on escalation ladder)? Dont you think developing ALCM''s with ranges north of 1km-15 km relatively high on our priority? We possess tactical air launched deep-strike capability. What we also need is a strategic deep-strike capability (atleast 1km-15km).
Additionally, dont you think we need to create more steps on our escalatory ladder to enable it not to reach its threshold in just a couple of escalatory steps?
I think we need to think a bit outside the box of LOC. Honestly speaking hurting Amritsar, Ludhiana, Bhuj or Jodhpur is not going to hurt them considering how much them damaging our Lahore and Karachi and Sialkot would be to us!
Below are circles of radius 1 km and 15 km respectively simulating ALCM launched from our airspace in sindh.

万一印度打击我们的大城市,我们有没有办法在孟买(和/或距离海岸15km的普纳)制造破坏?考虑到孟买一个地方就为印度贡献了超过4%的对外贸易,我们可以将其列为打击目标,并且可以对其造成沉重打击。我们能否不依赖任何种类的陆基导弹(巡航/弹道)做的这一点(因为这样做代表着冲突升级)?你不觉得开发航程1公里-15公里以上的ALCM(空射巡航导弹)是我们的优先任务吗?我们现在拥有战术空投纵深打击能力,但我们还需要战略纵深打击能力(至少1公里-15公里)。
另外,难道你不认为我们需要在我们的升级冲突手段中增加更多的层次吗?这样就不会仅仅几步就到达门槛。
我认为我们思考时需要跳出印巴控制线的框架。老实说,考虑到他们可以对我们的拉合尔、卡拉奇和锡亚尔科特造成的破坏程度,打击阿姆利则、卢迪亚纳、布杰或焦特布尔并不能打疼他们!
下图中的圆圈半径分别是1km和15km,模拟了从我国信德省发射空射巡航导弹的射程。



jupiter27
J-1C is better than JH-7 with better range. We should go for J-16 which would be better than JH-7.

J-1C优于JH-7,具有更好的射程。我们应该用J-16,它比JH-7要好。



PurpleButcher
To those who say we should focus only on JF17 Blk 3 & Azm
Will you guys be comfortable with just F-16s & JF-17s till mid 23s (F-7 and Mirages need to be retired). Hopefully AZM will become a reality afterwards? If the answer is yes, you guys will be comfortable relying on just 2 aircrafts, then Good Luck :), but if you guys believe that we need another aircraft then the argument regarding hassles of creating infrastructure, training, software upgrades is useless!
Now if you believe that yes we indeed need an aircraft, other than JF17 BLK 3 & F-16s in the next 15 years before AZM, to replace Mirages & F7s
Then what options we have

那些说我们只应该专注于JF17 Blk 3和Azm项目的人,
如果只有F-16s & JF-17s,你们可以一直安心到23年代吗?(F-7和幻影战机需要退役)。之后AZM项目能够真正落地吗?如果答案是肯定的,只依赖两种飞机都能让你们安心,那祝你们好运。但是如果你们认为我们需要另一种飞机,那么争论建造基础设施、培训和软件升级的麻烦是没有用的!
现在如果你们认为我们在AZM项目落地之前,未来15年确实需要一种不用于JF17 BLK 3和F-16s的飞机,用于取代幻影和F7,那我们的选择有:

a) West
Typhoon (Expensive, Prone to sanctions)
Rafael (Good Luck :P)
Grippen NG (Could be but the debate comes down to what it offers more than JF Blk 3)

a)西方
台风战机(昂贵,容易受到制裁)
阵风战机(祝好运)
鹰狮NG战机(有可能,但是会出现它比JF Blk 3有何种优势的争议)

b) Chinese
J-1
JH7
Chinese Flanker Series ( China-Russian Agreement factor so out of question)
c) Russian (With the dawn of Chinese century, lack of trust b/w Russia & Pakistan highly unlikely)
Which to chose between J-1 & JH7?
This is the question that should be debated depending on which aircraft better fills the gaps left by F-16s and JF-17s ? What are these specific gaps, only those in PAF''s higher command can tell with certainty! But why they are not pursuing a solution to fill these gaps is what bothers many.

b)中国
J-1
JH7

中国侧卫系列(由于中俄协议的因素,所以毫无疑问)
c)俄罗斯(随着中国世纪的曙光,俄罗斯和巴基斯坦之间很有可能出现缺乏信任的情况)
而J-1和JH7之间选择哪一种?
这个问题值得辩论,取决于哪种飞机能更好的填补F-16和JF-17留下的空白。这些具体的空白是什么,只有巴空军的高级指挥官才能确定的说出来!但是令很多人困惑的是,他们为什么不想办法填补这些空白呢。



GriffinsRule
Totally fine with just F-16s and JF-17s. Will greatly simplify logistics, thats for sure.
But even a 3rd type should be okay and will most likely be the remnants of Mirages.

只有F-16和JF-17是完全可以的。这可以极大的简化后勤,这是肯定的。
但是即使有第三种也应该没问题,而且很有可能是残存的幻影战机。



ziaulislam
there isnt money..
after JFT & project azm..you dont have funds....you may squeeze some for used or new f16s but that''s it,
mirages can still easy last till 23..if they need to fly afterward i suspect PAF will instead look at trying to build frxs itself(parts of it)
now if china offers super easy terms or if economy improves than its a possibility
for reference, even India cant induct many fighters beyond LCA and home-built su3..they are 12X bigger booming economy

问题是没钱……
搞完JFT和AZM项目后,你们就没有资金了……你们也许能挤出一些资金购买二手或全新的F16,但仅此而已。
幻影战机可以很容易用到23年代……如果那时候还要飞它们,我怀疑巴空军会想办法自己打造飞机(或者部分)。

现在如果中国提出超级宽松的条件,或者经济好转,那还是有可能的。
对比之下,即使印度经济繁荣,其规模是巴基斯坦的12倍,他们除了LCA和国产SU-3,也没有能力引进更多飞机。



Pakistani Fighter
Deep Strike in India''s Land? Dude Its India not Afghanistan

对印度领土发起纵深打击?哥们,那可是印度,不是阿富汗。



Foxtrot Delta
Something far better has been offered by china to pakistan for deep strike mission. We await its maturity and availability of funds. Jh-7B is old now. Pakistan has its sights set on 23 and beyond. It''s also inhouse assembly.

中国向巴基斯坦提供了更好的装备来执行深度打击任务。我们等待它的到期和资金的供应。JH-7B现在很老了。巴基斯坦着眼于23年以后。它也在进行国内装配。



Enigma SIG
Deep strike bombers are useless in a highly contested airspace with scores of AD platforms and air assets looking to hunt you down. PAF will have to assign a number of aircraft to protect these assets (SEAD,Escort).
Also, India keeps promoting the Karachi blockade to the detriment of Pakistan. PNis then left to think defensively. India needs to be sent a message that blockading Karachi would mean ballistic missiles heading to Mumbai; not diplomatically, but directly.

纵深打击?轰炸机在战况高度密集的空域是没用的,因为有大量防空平台和空中资产准备将其击落。巴基斯坦将不得不派出一定数量的飞机来保护这种资产(压制敌方防空火力、护航)。

另外,印度一直在推动封锁卡拉奇,意在损害巴基斯坦的利益。然后巴基斯坦海就会为了考虑防守而离开。我们需要向印度发出信息,只要他们封锁卡拉奇,就意味着我们将用弹道导弹瞄准孟买,不要以外交的方式,要直接告诉他们。



SABRE
Which to chose between J-1 & JH7?
Or just take a leap on FC-31. The Chinese have picked up their pace with it. However, given the current economic and Covid-19 fallout situation I don''t expect new fighter aircraft deal for the next few years. We have to push the JF-17 programme.

J-1和JH7之间选什么?
还不如直接跳到FC-31。中国已经加快了步伐。然而,考虑到目前的经济形势和219冠状病毒病的影响,我预计未来几年不会有新的战斗机交易。我们必须推进JF-17计划。



PurpleButcher
Maybe AZM will be just a Pakistani version of FC-31

也许AZM将会是巴基斯坦版的FC-31。



SABRE
Its possible

有可能。



Foxtrot Delta
They meed to be atleast 4 km near karachi for blockage of the port and they would need 4x the navy size they have right now for the task.
Even 4 km away they can be sunk now in 22. Pakistan is not what they think. Their perception is of a weak Pakistan. They shall know on battlefield and in sea and air. It will be they who would have to be defensive

想要封锁卡拉奇港口,他们至少需要进入卡拉奇4km范围内,要想完成这个任务,他们需要4倍于目前的海军规模。

现在22年,即使在4km外,他们也会被击沉。巴基斯坦超出了他们的想象。他们认为巴基斯坦是一个弱国。但他们将在战场上、海上和空中知道真相。不得不采取守势的一方将是他们。



zhxy
Pakistan can buy 2 SU-57 from Russia and pay in installments to receive TOT

巴基斯坦可以从俄罗斯采购2架苏-57,并分期付款买单。



araz
Bhai we have heard about JH7 from Mastan Khan and if I remember there have been multiple threads on it in the past as well. PAF has uated and rejected the JH7. Currently their supply and assembly line has been discontinued so it is a mute subject. PLAAN has moved on from J16 to JXX as they felt that in today''s environment even J16 does not cut it(other reasons being financial and technological) and they need a stealth plane. So to restart the supply and assembly line you will have to pour in your money into the project. Can you honestly say that this is a wise thing to do as the JH7 remains a one trick pony and there will be no space in modern day strategy for one trick ponies. Unlike the US encounters against Iraq and VIet Nam, the 2 Air forces are more or less evenly matched. You will not , therefore be able to use the JH7 till you have gained decisive air superiority and even then JH7 will need top cover to do the job you want it to do. The Indian missile defence remains comprehensive and good so get ready to lose men and machines on a mad adventure like this which you cna carry out with missiles as well and possibly more expediently and with more damaging effects(I understand the repercussions of this as well so let us not go down that route). There is so much wrong with this strategy and it is so out of whack with what PAF wants why does this topic keep coming up??????????

Mastan Khan说过JH7,如果我没记错,过去也有好几个帖子讨论这个问题。巴基斯坦已经评估过JH7并且拒绝了。最近他们的生产组装线已经关停,所以这个话题没有意义。中国空军已经从J16迈向JXX,因为他们认为在目前的环境下,即使J16也不够格(还有其他资金和技术方面的原因),他们需要一款隐形飞机。所以要想重启生产组装线,就必须向里面投钱。你真觉得这样做明智吗?

因为JH7是一种用途单一的装备,在当今时代的战略下没有它的空间。印巴不像美国对付伊拉克和越南,印巴两国空军多少算是势均力敌。所以在获得决定性空中优势之前,是不能使用JH7的,即使那时候,也需要掩护才能让JH7完成你想让它完成的任务。印度的导弹防御依然很全面且优秀,所以如果你们想要疯狂冒险,就准备好损失人手和装备吧,你们也可以用导弹进行打击,那样做可能更方便,造成的破坏效果也更大(我也明白这样做的后果,所以希望我们不要走上这条路)。这个策略有很多错误,它与巴空军的目标相去甚远,但为什么这个话题会不停的出现呢?


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